Stephanie Cadieux, Canada's Chief Accessibility Officer

Joeita Gupta:
I'm Joeita Gupta, and this is The Pulse. The Accessible Canada Act is a landmark piece of legislation which aims to realize a barrier-free Canada by 2040. A key principle of the act is nothing about us without us. This means that people with disabilities should be fully consulted when developing laws, policies, and principles that impact us. It's clearly an ambitious piece of legislation.
However, as with most laws, a lot comes down to implementation, and the people tasked with writing regulations, creating standards, and offering advice. The Accessible Canada Act can potentially have far-reaching consequences for people with disabilities, impacting our lives in ways both big and small. Today we meet Canada's chief accessibility officer. It's time to put your finger on the pulse.
Hello, and welcome to The Pulse on AMI Audio. I'm Joeita Gupta, joining you from Accessible Media Studios in Toronto. I'm wearing a light blue long-sleeve shirt, which is button-down in the front, and you can probably see the buttons there. And my hair is pulled back in a bun. I also have my headphones on, so there are black headphones that go over the ears. So that's just a brief description of what I look like.
In recognition of National Accessibility Awareness Week, which is celebrated towards the end of May, we wanted to check in with Stephanie Cadieux, who is Canada's chief accessibility officer. This is her first time being on the program, and she's been on the job for about a year. Stephanie, hello and welcome to the program. I'm so glad you could join us today.

Stephanie Cadieux:
Well, thank you very much. It's nice to be here. Thanks for the invitation.

Joeita Gupta:
Stephanie, what do you do in your role as Canada's chief accessibility officer?

Stephanie Cadieux:
Well, it's a new role. It's a role legislated under the act, and my job is as an independent advisor to the minister responsible, and what that means and what ultimately I will do is present a report to her on an annual basis to document the progress that we're making towards the goals of the act, which of course ultimately is a barrier-free Canada by 2040.
So in that role, in order to do that, in order to do that reporting. I'm taking a sort of 40,000-foot look level at the work that's going on inside the federal government, inside the federally regulated sectors, like banking, like telecoms and airlines and beyond, in the private sector, in the provincial realm, and internationally, to see what trends are emerging that might have impact positively or negatively on our progress. So it's a wide-ranging role. I'm here to bring cohesion to all of the work that's going on under the act and ultimately to keep us moving forward.

Joeita Gupta:
Well, as you say, it is a wide-ranging role. Do you have a game plan for how you intend to go about balancing these different priorities? Because you don't want to be focused so much on the provincial scene that you neglect the federal, or you don't want to be so focused on the federal that you neglect what's happening internationally. So how do you intend to balance all of those requirements on your time?

Stephanie Cadieux:
Well, that's an ongoing challenge, but I would say in the first year, I've spent most of my time in the first year just reaching out, just having those conversations and developing the relationships back and forth with international partners, with partners provincially, with partners inside the federal government and inside the regulated sectors. Just having conversations with the disability community broadly across the country with advocates, just because we need to hear from both sides of this equation, those who are implementing, those who are trying to do the work, and those who are ultimately affected by the work, so we can know whether or not we're seeing progress and whether or not it's working, and frankly, making connections between the two.
Because the work can't go on without the involvement of people with disabilities, as is embedded in the act. But making those connections is not always easy or straightforward for the companies or the departments that are trying to put their accessibility plans together. So a lot of it's about connecting. Once those connections are in place and that network is strong enough, then a lot of it balances out because the information will come to me. And so I expect that a lot of my time will continue to be spent in that outward-facing role, listening, sharing.
And I think we're deciding as we go that there are a lot of priorities under the act, from employment, the built environment, communications, technology, all the way through the seven different areas. We can't possibly do a deep dive on all of them all of the time, but employment is certainly, it's always been a focus of mine in my career, and it's certainly something that people with disabilities raised as one of the most important things the government could do for them, is to help them get employed. So I am definitely making a point of digging in a little bit on employment over the first year or two.

Joeita Gupta:
How are you planning to dig in on employment?

Stephanie Cadieux:
Well, it's really about looking at what the best practices are and what's working and what's not working. So the federal government made a commitment to hire 5,000 people into the public service by 2025, and despite a lot of really good efforts and a lot of pilot programs, a lot of changes to policy, we're still not seeing the result that we should.
And that's something that the public service is very much focused on, but I'm trying to look at it from a different perspective than those who are doing the implementation and say, well, what are we seeing? What are the trends? Why maybe, what are the things that's not working? And look outside, what are private sector organizations doing that could be looked at as a best practice? Is anyone having success in this arena?
So it's a lot. Again, it's delving, it's asking questions. I don't think anyone has this figured out yet entirely, but we want to be able to hone in and help to guide the government and the agencies in their work in this area.

Joeita Gupta:
Not too recent, not too long ago, I read that about seven out of 10 Canadians who are blind or low vision are either unemployed and underemployed. And when I was in university some 10, 15 years ago, I'm not quite going to tell you when, but those numbers were pretty much the same. Why is it that although everybody acknowledges that employment barriers continue to be a major issue within the disability community, there isn't one person who has said, oh, this isn't a big deal. Why is it, based on your discussions and the conversations that you've had, that we have made so little progress?

Stephanie Cadieux:
You know what? This is exactly why I'm trying to dig in here because you're right, we have, yeah, and I'm not sure of the exact statistics overall, but we know. All of the statistics tell us that people with disabilities broadly are underemployed or unemployed. And we know that about 645,000 people right now in Canada who have disabilities want to work. They're ready to work. We know that most of those people, or not most, but at least half of those people, sorry, have a level of post-secondary education or trade.
So these folks are highly employable, and yet we're not seeing the movement of numbers into employment that we would hope, and organizations are putting out their flag and saying, we want to hire and we're open to people with disabilities, but we're not seeing it result in hires. I think there are a lot of reasons for that. I think some of them are as simple as even if somebody is offered a job, if the accessible transportation doesn't exist to get them to the job, they can't accept. If accessible housing doesn't exist, they can't move to that location they're being asked to transfer to or move to. If the application process involves artificial intelligence, it may screen people with disabilities out before they ever get into the process.
So we know there are all sorts of complexities to this, but we also know there are examples of good practice. When I was in Geneva in February, I was blown away by an example of an owner of a number of McDonald's franchises who had just made a decision that he wanted his workforce to be representative of his community and so that it should include people with disabilities. And he sent about to hire some, and the first folks in the door were folks who were deaf or on the autism spectrum.
And what did he do? He didn't say, oh, this is not going to work. This is retail. You have to be able to communicate with customers. He didn't say that at all. He just said, okay, what do we need to do to make this work? And I'm abbreviating, obviously, but in short, he offered sign language training to all of his staff so that they could communicate with their new colleague. They changed some processes in the kitchen because some of the processes were hard to follow for some of the folks that were neurodiverse. They responded better to a colour coding system. They just put it in place.
They didn't see it as a burden, they didn't see it as difficult. It was something that needed to happen, so they did it. And we asked the question, well, how did you do it? They said, well, you just start. And so that approach and that attitude was clearly the reason why they were having success. They had the attitude that it would work from the beginning. Now, and they said, they also said, not everybody is suited to the employment and sometimes it doesn't work out, but that's the same for people with and without disabilities. That isn't unique to people with disabilities. So their attitude was really different, and it set a tone and a culture in an organization that allowed for that hiring and it allowed for those people to be successful on the job.
And I think those kinds of examples are the ones we need to really hold up for others to see and to try and get their head wrapped around what's it going to take? And to really be open to trying things that are different, to not being stuck in the systems and processes that they've used for everyone else and assume that people with disabilities can fit into those processes. Those processes may very well be the reason people are being excluded.

Joeita Gupta:
Years ago, I took a management class and there was a poster on the wall which was captioned, culture can eat strategy for lunch. In your role as the chief accessibility officer, when you think about creating a culture of accessibility or a culture of inclusion, how important is that compared to having a strategy or having a plan or having a policy? And if you think that culture is important, how do you go about introducing that culture or bringing about that change?

Stephanie Cadieux:
Yeah. Well, isn't that the million-dollar question? You're really hitting on it. All of the policies are essential. All of the practices are essential. The accessibility in the built environment is essential. But we can have the best plan in place and we can say all the right things, but if we don't do it, if we don't action it, and if we don't change the culture, then we will not be successful. We can hire somebody with a disability, but if we don't make the work environment welcoming, they're not going to be successful and they're not going to want to stay.
We can say all the right things, but if we're not living it through our actions and our interpersonal relationships at work, if people don't trust that that culture is there of inclusion, then people are not going to feel like they can disclose. People who acquire a disability while they're at work are not going to feel like there's an openness to helping them adapt at work, and they're going to leave. So culture does eat strategy for breakfast. Absolutely.
And I think culture is the piece that is essential that we get right. It's also the hardest because building that culture means confronting all of our unconscious bias. It means for every one of us, we hold these, that it is just in our brains. We've experienced things and it has coloured how we view the world. And we have to be able to do that work individually and as organizations, to say, where are those biases? Where are those barriers? And how do we change it? How do we make this a culture of inclusion? How do we wake up every day and come to a place that we help to, through our actions and our intent, make a place that welcomes everyone, whether that be as employees or as customers or as recipients of service? How do we ensure that we have baked accessibility and inclusion into our thinking every time we pick up the pen to start a new project? Are we asking the right questions from the beginning?
It's not something that's going to happen overnight. It's going to happen because people take up the torch and they say, we can do this. They ask questions. They're not afraid. They're not afraid to make some mistakes along the way. And people with disabilities have to be included in that process from the beginning so that everybody can learn that together and that their expertise and their innovative thinking skills can be brought to the table to challenge what will be some very difficult situations.

Joeita Gupta:
You've had one year on the job, and it sounds like it's been a busy year with a lot of things on the go, but if you had to reflect on one success story, what would that be?

Stephanie Cadieux:
We're just getting started and we're just figuring out how to be most effective in this space, how to be most helpful. But that said, I would say that the biggest success or learning in this first year has been that there is a readiness. There is an intent. People are really eager to do the right thing. I think we've come to a tipping point in society overall where people say, well, of course, we should do that. That's the right thing to do. Well, why wouldn't we do that? Of course, I want people with disabilities included. They just don't know how to do it.
And so we're at that tipping point in terms of we now have a law that says we will do this. And people are actively thinking about it. And I'm finding that the engagements that I'm having are really, really positive. People want to get this right. So the fact that there's that readiness and willingness to look at these issues and look at doing things differently is a real success. I mean, we haven't always been here. This is new. So I would say that has been a real bright spot in the first year.
There are lots of individual successes that I've observed inside different organizations, whether they've had success with a hiring pilot or a success re-envisioning a building and really building accessibility in from the start. There are those kind of individual successes out there, but I would say we're still at early days, and the biggest success is knowing that people are actively thinking about this work.

Joeita Gupta:
That is so important, and the value of people being onsite and being willing to work on accessibility and inclusion cannot be underestimated. Now, you did say it's early days, so bearing in mind that there's obviously a definitive challenge around finding your feet and organizing your schedule and figuring out who to talk to, was there nevertheless something in the role that took you by surprise, an unanticipated barrier that you didn't think you were going to encounter?

Stephanie Cadieux:
Yeah, no, I think the unexpected, it's not an unexpected barrier. I think I came in with my eyes open. My background allowed me to understand a lot of the complexities of working on systematic or system-wide changes on these really big intractable issues that we've had so little progress on for so long. I'm not surprised by it, but frustrated perhaps at times by the pace, the slow pace of change, just like I think every person with a disability who wants this to just have been done already.
I live this, I'm in the community. I've been fighting these battles my whole adult life, and so I'm as impatient as anyone else. And so there is that frustration, I think, that it takes so long. On the other hand, from a career perspective, I am very aware and very pragmatic about the reality of that change takes time and that these are not ships you can shift overnight. These are things that will take time and effort, concerted effort.
So I would, yeah, I think that caused a challenge that I will face in this role as an internal struggle myself, is that pushing forward and being positive about the steps we're taking and the moves we are seeing versus my own personal views and feelings, which I think very much represent those of others in the disability community about, my gosh, it's not rocket science. Can we just get it done?

Joeita Gupta:
Right. You've mentioned the lived experience aspect of this job. How important has being a part of the disability community been in carrying out your role? I'm sure in instances where it's come to talking with members of the disability community, it's been very helpful to say, look, I can relate to what you're going through, but are there also instances where maybe it hasn't been as much of an asset?

Stephanie Cadieux:
No, I think it's an asset. I think it's important. I think it's really important just from the fact that I deeply believe in my heart and in my soul that representation matters. Visible representation matters. People with disabilities need to see that there are people with disabilities in leadership and people inside systems need to see that representation and that leadership as well.
And I think my own experiences as a person with disability, who acquired a disability and has been sort of a learner my whole adult life around the issues of disability broadly, beyond those that I face into all of the different aspects, I think is helpful. Certainly I think it brings me an ability to get to the point faster with advocates around what their particular challenges or issues are. It helps me to translate, I think, between the public and the policy a bit.
But I think it also allows me to reflect and be patient with those who don't live this, who are not in our community, who do not have the experience, and to give them some space to be wrong and help them to understand that that's okay, that we're not angry that they didn't get it right the first time or that they didn't know. Because I think so many people feel apprehensive around engaging with people with disabilities or on this topic of inclusion and accessibility because they don't know if they're saying the right thing. They're afraid to do the wrong thing.
And I look back to my experience as an individual. I have said the wrong thing. I have done the wrong thing, and I have frankly just forgotten in my own world. I was preparing a PowerPoint presentation for something early in my tenure here, and all of a sudden went, oh my gosh, is it accessible? It wasn't at that time. We fixed it. But I mean, even I in this role had missed it, right? And that's going to happen, and we have to give people that space.
And I think when I was first injured, I would say, oh yeah, I can go to that place. I've been there before. It's accessible. And then I would get there and realize there were three or four stairs and there was no way I was getting my wheelchair up three or four stairs. And it dawned on me that I just didn't see it. I didn't need it; therefore, I didn't see it. Those barriers didn't exist to me. And it wasn't because I didn't care about other people, it's that I didn't need it. And so I didn't notice. And I think that experience from myself and recognizing that I myself have made those errors gives me an ability to give others some space and opportunity to ask questions and learn, because together, it's going to take effort.
Not all people with disabilities have all the same issues. We know very much the issues of disability and how it affects people are as diverse as people are. So there's a lot of complexity here. And from time to time, things will actually compete for access. What's right for or what would be perfect for me as a wheelchair user might be very different than what would be perfect for someone who's blind.
And we will have to find the best for all, not perfect for anyone. And balancing those priorities and challenges is part of the job. But because of my 30 years working on these issues and working with people with such a wide variety of challenges, I think I have a really good perspective. And certainly, I know what I don't know, but I know where to get the information.

Joeita Gupta:
Stephanie, I really appreciate that you spoke to us today, and your insight and your compassion that you bring to the job is deeply appreciated. Thank you for being on the program and sharing some of your thoughts, and good luck on the job. I'm sure you'll be great, and I look forward to having you back to check in on the second anniversary of your tenure as chief accessibility officer.

Stephanie Cadieux:
That would be wonderful. Thank you so much for your time.

Joeita Gupta:
Stephanie Cadieux is Canada's chief accessibility Officer. Well, folks, we are right up against the clock. It's been great being with you today. If you have any feedback, you can write to feedback@ami.ca, find us on Twitter at @AMIaudio, use the hashtag #pulseami, or you can give us a call at 1-866-509-4545. That's 1-866-509-4545. My videographer today has been Matthew McGurk. Marc Aflalo is technical producer. Ryan Delehanty is coordinator for podcast at AMI-audio. And Andy Frank is manager at AMI Audio. I've been your host, Joeita Gupta. Thanks for listening.