Disability, Employment and Workplace Advocacy

Judy Heumann:
I believe very strongly that my personals, your personals, and 20 other people's personals in the air of employment paint a picture where there are similar types of barriers that we're experiencing. And as such, it allows us to say, "These are systemic issues and there need to be systemic solutions."

Joeita Gupta:
I'm Joeita Gupta, and this is The Pulse. October is National Disability Employment Awareness Month. In Canada, those with mild disabilities are most likely to find work. However, despite efforts to level the playing field, the employment rate for Canadians with disabilities has stubbornly remained below the national average.
Often people with disabilities end up in jobs that are precarious, temporary, and without benefits of security. We need to change the conversation on employment and disability. It's important to note the barriers, but we need to go beyond that. We need to frame the conversation around the skills and abilities of workers with disabilities. Workers with disabilities can be assets to the companies which employ them. Today, we discuss disability and employment. It's time to put your finger on The Pulse.
Hello, and welcome to The Pulse on AMI Audio, and it's great to be with you. I'm Joeita Gupta. I'm the host of the program, really excited to be talking disability and employment today. I'm joining you from the Accessible Media Studios in downtown Toronto located on Treaty 13 Lands. Today my hair's in a ponytail. I'm sitting against a white backdrop. And I'm in a full sleeve sweater with a round neck and it's a nice light blue.
In today's program, you'll be hearing from two guests. Later on you'll be hearing from the world-famous disability advocate, Judy Heumann, who's offering one of three courses as part of Fable's new programming and courses delivered to people with disabilities. In a few moments, Judy's going to talk to you about her course, which is about advocating for yourself in the workplace.
But first, I'm really pleased to bring in the Pathways Lead for Fable, which is Kim Donaldson. And Kim is going to give us a brief overview of the program and courses. Kim, welcome to The Pulse. It's great to have you on the program.

Kim Donaldson:
Thanks so much for having me. Really happy to be here Joeita.

Joeita Gupta:
Kim, what can you tell us about Fable?

Kim Donaldson:
Fable is a digital accessibility company. We are based out of Toronto as well. And Fable supports organizations in making their digital products more accessible. And more recently we launched Fable Pathways, which the idea is to narrow the gap in terms of opportunities for people with disabilities to work in the tech sector.

Joeita Gupta:
So tell us about some of the courses that you're offering me. And let me just mention, these are all free, is that right?

Kim Donaldson:
That is correct. So we reached out to our network just to really understand the landscape. What were the challenges that people with disabilities in our network were facing in terms of entering the tech sector? And cost was a significant one that came up. And so really important to us that courses that are offered are free.
Some other challenges that came up were either physical accessibility or digital accessibility to those courses. And so all of our courses are tested by our community of accessibility testers, so accessible with screen readers, screen magnification, alternate forms of navigation like voice navigation or switch control. And they're on demand. So folks can start when they want and stop when they want, and move along at their own pace.
The courses themselves are a combination of video content and written content. The video content is high quality, kind of a documentary style. And our instructors are all folks with disabilities who are specialists in their field. And so most recently you had mentioned Judy will be speaking shortly, Judy Heumann, an advocate in the US and beyond. You mentioned a little bit about her.
She teaches a course on advocating for work, and this comes out of something that many folks experience in terms of having to advocate for themselves in the workplace. Two other courses that are offered is one with my colleague Kate Kalcevich on becoming a manager. And a third, a little bit more technically focused with Kelly Ford, who works with Microsoft. And he gives folks an introduction to web development using tools like VS Code and GitHub.

Joeita Gupta:
Well, it's amazing. I actually registered for some of the courses and it is a breeze to navigate. I have to tell you. I plan to take a few on the weekend myself. Can you tell us just before you go, how we access these courses online?

Kim Donaldson:
Yeah. Absolutely. So if you had to fablepathways.com, there you'll learn everything that you need to about the courses. You'll be able to watch the trailers of each of the courses. And it's a pretty se seamless signup process. You type in your email, you will receive a verification email. And I think Joeita, as you can attest, once you go through that process, you're able to get started.

Joeita Gupta:
Oh, for sure. It's smooth sailing. Kim, thank you so much for speaking to us today.

Kim Donaldson:
Thanks so much for your interest.

Joeita Gupta:
Kim Donaldson is Pathways Lead at Fable. I hope that if you find our content useful, you'll consider liking and subscribing as well as commenting. You can comment down below on YouTube, but also you can comment on our podcasts. I would love to hear your experience with finding employment, whether you are an able-bodied person or definitely a person with a disability. What's been your experience finding work? Share your stories in the comments we would love to hear from you.
Joining me now on the program is disability advocate Judy Heumann. Judy is known for her decades of activism on disability rights. And Judy is teaching one of several courses offered by Fable through their Pathways program. This one about advocacy in the workplace. I'm delighted to welcome Judy back to the program. When Judy's memoir came out, she had been a guest on The Pulse. Judy, welcome back to The Pulse. How have you been? It's great to have you on the program.

Judy Heumann:
Great. It's very nice to see you again.

Joeita Gupta:
Judy, I know, and I think you'd agree with the sentiment as well that employment is so crucial to people with disabilities. What attracted you to Fable? And what made you decide you wanted to teach a course on advocating for yourself in the workplace?

Judy Heumann:
Well, I think employment is an essential part of everyone in all countries around the world. And the reason why we wind up having separate discussions about disabled people is because of the biases and discrimination that we face for many reasons. I believe that you had your disability when you were young. How old were you when you acquired your disability?
Okay, so I had mine at 18 months old. So we have different experiences then people who acquire their disabilities when they've maybe already been in the workforce and then acquire their disability as a result of a work-related injury or an injury that's nothing to do with their work. But at the end of the day, in all of our countries, we see a higher unemployment rate, significantly higher for disabled individuals. And that can be coupled with issues around benefits that people may need that they may lose when they work.
And also I think employers who are, for example, in the United States, and I think in Canada, obligated under a number of laws to not be discriminating against disabled people in employment and to be looking from an affirmative perspective at employing disabled people. But in many cases their own biases, but I also want to say that I think in some way it's deeper than biases. It's such limited exposure. People having not, what I say, broken bread together with people who have different disabilities. And almost as I would say to my life friend, Kitty, "Am I a martian?" Because the way people would act towards me sometimes I would think I must be from someplace else. And people can treat me and others so differently.
So I was very interested when Fable Pathways reached out to me to talk with me about the courses that they're doing, because it's an opportunity to share, in this case, for me, my experiences. This hopefully will prove informative for other people, not just people with disabilities, but others to learn and share information, because I think that's really, really important that we learn from each other.

Joeita Gupta:
I'm curious about whether advocacy can in fact be taught. Because I think a lot of people feel that it's something that you are either born with, either you got the skill sets or you don't have it. What do you think, Judy, is advocacy just something else that can be taught? Is it a skill that we can pick up along the way?

Judy Heumann:
I think absolutely we can. And we have to remember that there are many different forms of advocacy. And so I think what we need to do is learn from the person themselves about what their interests, their goals and aspirations are, and to talk with them about that. And to maybe help facilitate people in role-playing, in experimenting, like in the case of a job interview. I think it's very common that many people, disabled or not, will have a mock job interview. Will be working with someone on how to put your resume forward. Will be talking about how you deal with a particular situation that may be going on in the area of work.
So I think we should look at advocacy in a very broad way. Being able to speak up for yourself, gain confidence, for example, in expressing who you are, what your skill sets are, whether or not you may need an accommodation, and being able to discuss what it would look like. You can call that advocacy. Sometimes the word advocacy can make people think like, "Oh, I'm not an advocate. I don't want to be out there. I don't want to be like above the fray."
So you use another word. But to me it's everyone advocates. It may be going to the store in a particular product that you want to eat, and advocating to get one type of bread over another. It could be any one of a number of things. You're in the household, you have one TV, you want to negotiate what's going to be watched on that television. That's advocacy. And then we get advocacy where we're working with groups and we're trying to put objectives together and legislation together. And some people are going to speak and go talk to legislators and negotiate all that. Not everybody may be interested in that.

Joeita Gupta:
So I mentioned earlier that I had just logged on and signed up to Fable Pathways and I logged on to your course. It takes about an hour and a half to complete. In that hour and a half, Judy, what all do we learn?

Judy Heumann:
Well, I think you would learn from me, experiences that I've had in my life in moving forward. How I've handled different situations. Trying to set a table that allows people to see that life changes. Look at who you are, what you've been doing, and how to be able to speak up for yourself. And speaking up for yourself does not mean that you have to be a loud, articulate person. It's identifying what ways you feel are most meaningful and comfortable for you, but also knowing areas where you want to be able to work with other people and strengthening some aspects of who you are to do what you would consider for yourself a better job. What did you think about the course?

Joeita Gupta:
No, I actually didn't get around to taking it to be honest with you. I was hoping to do it on the weekend, but it looks like a really interesting course. And as I was looking over the course, I got to thinking about what advocacy actually does. Is it more about fixing something that's wrong? Or is it about creating opportunities and the right conditions maybe for an employee with a disability to do their best at work? What do you think?

Judy Heumann:
It's both. I mean, I think advocacy, as I was saying, is very broad. I don't think we should put it into one box. So if we're looking at advocacy from the perspective of a company, for example, it can be anything from an employee group within the company who has come together, because there are changes that they believe need to be made in the company to address issues of accessibility, of training of human resources people, of making sure that hiring managers and supervisors get questions answered that they need. Are there policies and practices in place that allow someone who needs an accommodation to get those accommodations as quickly as possible? Is it a bureaucratic procedure that you have to go forward with in getting an accommodation? How do employees know what the policies are for the company? All of those things are advocacy, systemic types of advocacy.
But then also I think they come about because people feel there are issues that need to be addressed. And so I think it's an empowering opportunity, particularly if leadership within the entity is respectful of the fact that even if people are trying to do their best, there still may be many areas that need to be changed. And listening to the voices of those people that are affected I think is very important. And being able to measure the progress.
And then there's the individual person. And again, I think companies want to be creating opportunities for people to be able to bring their best selves to the table. But even before someone... When we're looking at high school students, for example, who are thinking about the world of work, being able to be supportive of them, to be able to really look at what are other teenagers doing? Are they getting internships? How are they getting internships? Are you getting those internships? Do you feel if you get one that you're getting the supports that you need? How do you understand the kinds of accommodations that you may need? And how do you speak up on your own behalf? Or do you have someone who's helping you in an internship or a mentorship?
I'm hoping that what the course that I'm giving and the other two courses that they have up thus far are really giving the audience, those people who come in to take the course, an example of various things that need to be done. They're not the answers. I mean, from my perspective, I don't come forward saying two plus two is four, and it's the only answer that you can get. But rather, I'm really trying to enable people to see who they are and the strength that they have. And hopefully I'm giving them information about encounters that I've had in my life, which have not always been rosy and easy.
And allowing people to recognize that life has barriers, particularly for those of us with disabilities and those of us with disabilities, who may also be from other minorities statuses where there may be multiple forms of discrimination that people are experiencing. So it's really, I hope, tools to allow people to look more deeply at where they are, what they need, and with the resources that are available, give people more information, and maybe dip their toe into water to try to move forward or have a better understanding of what areas they need to strengthen.

Joeita Gupta:
I like to throw around that phrase that became really popular with second wave feminists about the personal is political. Do you think there's a relationship or a connection that can be drawn between the individual's advocacy in their workplace about their particular employment situation and the kinds of institutional and systemic change that many disability activists, including yourself, of course, have been calling on for decades? So is there a relationship between the micro and the macro, I suppose?

Judy Heumann:
I think they're part of the whole, and I think it requires both the support of individual people to be able to feel confident in moving forward, but also that bringing a larger group of people together who understand the forms of discrimination and hurdles and barriers that disabled people are facing. And in many cases, things that we're discussing are based on our own personal experiences and based on the experiences of others.
So in the course that I have done, as I've been saying, I really hope that people see themselves identify their own stories and their friends, maybe they don't know other disabled people. There's so many variables. But I do think that, and I presume for you, we're in part motivated to improve things for ourselves. But, for me, the reality is I would not have been facing these various forms of discrimination and barriers over the course of my life, when other people weren't. Because they're deep-seated, it's systemic.
And we need to be recognizing, as you were saying, that I believe very strongly that my personals, your personals, 20 other people's personals in the air of employment, paints the picture where there are similar types of barriers that we're experiencing. And as such, it allows us to say, "These are systemic issues and there need to be systemic solutions." Those systemic solutions like in the air employment or education or many other areas are not a cookie cutter approach, where by and large one size fits all. But pretty much where certain things change, it will benefit the majority of those 20 of us.
And I think we're trying to create systems that acknowledge when their actions are having an adverse effect on many. And that there are issues within a company, for example, that need to be changed, that will enable the stories of people like you and me to change, because our experiences are different. They've improved over the course of our life.
And I think there are certainly areas where that's occurred. Where in the states laws like the Americans with Disabilities Act and Title I for employment have really had an effect on disabled people moving into certain areas of employment that previously didn't happen. For us, a combination of section 504, which prohibits discrimination against disabled people in programs getting money from the federal government has had a real impact in higher education.
So for example, now we are seeing more disabled people who are becoming doctors or moving into positions, where really before 1980 or so, you didn't meet people who were studying to become doctors or nurses who had their disability when they were entering the field. And we can see that in many other areas. So changes are happening, but we also see, even in those schools where students are being accepted into various healthcare careers, that they then may be having difficulty with hospitals or other places where they're reluctant to allow them to come in and do their placements in order to get the experience they need.
So what I want people to believe is that things can change, that our individual and collective voices bring about that change, and that we need to be resilient. And as changes are being made, we also need to call out positive things that are happening, because those people also who've really been making changes, can be a very important voice in helping others to make systemic changes within their companies or wherever they may be residing.

Joeita Gupta:
Judy, thank you so much for speaking to me today. It looks like a phenomenal course, and I can't wait to take it. And you have so much wisdom and so much insight to offer when it comes to disability activism, so I hope we can pick up the thread of our conversation and chat more in future about disability and employment.

Judy Heumann:
You're very welcome.

Joeita Gupta:
That was Judy Heumann, who is a disability activist and advocate, and is one of several instructors in the Fable Pathways program teaching a course about advocacy in the workplace. Really, it was quite a breeze to sign on and I hope you'll consider taking some of their courses. It looked like it's going to be very informative. That's all the time we have for today. I want to thank you for being a part of the conversation.
Our technical producer is Marco Aflalo. Our videographer today is Matthew McGurk. Andy Frank is the manager for AMI Audio. If you have any feedback, you can send us an email right to feedback@ami.ca. You can also find us on Twitter @amiaudio, use the hashtag PulseAMI. Of course, if you'd like to leave us a voicemail, you do have to give us permission to play the voicemail on the program. But you can call us at 1-866-509-4545, that's 1-866-509-4545. You can also find me on Twitter @JoeitaGupta.
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